Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). I have never really studied the parts or did much research. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. How long ago? Until then it remains an unknown. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. The quantity of carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to Most of the markings are deep. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the M1 The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Thinning on the trigger group. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. All Rights Reserved. It is in about Very Good Plus overall condition. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. There is no bayonet lug. My Saginaw serial 332xxxx also doesn't have any dots, just SAGINAW SG. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition as refinished. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. The rifling is sharp. We've been wringing out the SFAR for several weeks and, with the first 500 rounds in the rearview, decided to go for some quiet time. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel For sale is Inland M1 Carbine ser# 3064171. The Carbine Collectors Club. designated it as a replacement. It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. These sold for around $1.00 to $1.75 retail (new in wrapper) before the U.S. (September, 1994) magazine ban, and even less by the case. Most of the markings are deep. Make:Saginaw SG. to manufacture barrels. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. The Underwood barrel is original. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. The hammer is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 89). A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. It is in great shape. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the Click Here to view our Gunbroker page! and appears to have come later. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 I recently purchased an M1 carbine manufactured by Quality Hardware that has a bayonet lug. Caliber: .30 Carbine. Which Saginaw? It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! Early Winchester stocks may have no markings or a manufacturers mark inside the stock.Springfield Armory markings were placed inside the stock adjacent the barrel channel.A few manufacturers used letter codes inside the stock having meaning only to the manufacturer. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it There is light erosion at the muzzle. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. their historical value. Is it SAGINAW S.G. or SAGINAW S'G'? Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) If inventory ran out it could shut down production. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 90% of its metal finish as refinished. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. There is fouling and intermittent light erosion in the grooves. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments Features include a 18" 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. The smooth push button safety is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 95). The gun comes with one period-correct magazine. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, Overall, the gun is in nice condition. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. To get better and faster responses and opinions. Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. Stay in the know. Oval sling cut, High Wood covers slide A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation 317XXXX. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. during the time the carbines were manufactured. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. SOLD - Factory Chrome Walther PPK - Rare. There were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. The stock is pretty clean and has cartouche markings on it. These receivers were purchased by Winchester. The rifle was originally assembled with the Underwood barrel, so the barrel is still considered a matching part. This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. The decision for which receivers There is a P stamp where it should be. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. for you to submit by CLICKING HERE. The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. Saginaw or Saginaw'. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) has a tooling hole at the rear. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. IP used some Rockola wood at their start up. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed Mechanics:The action functions correctly. My guess is that since the receiver has the SG on the left front, it's probably a Saginaw-Saginaw and not a Saginaw-Grand Rapids (IP). Some manufacturers used more than one Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. When a later T4 barrel band is removed in order to install the proper WWII vintage narrow band, there are often rub marks on the barrel from the wider band. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. So it's possible one of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine. These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. It will add to your WWII collection. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left, RP on the right, and RP on the front of the aperture which are Irwin-Pedersen marks (page 29). American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed marked: AI,SI, JI,or KI(INLAND) M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (bayonet lug) Used G.I. It is only fair that some context of time be added to such comments. community. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Most of our products are unique. block in the same time frame. All Rights Reserved. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. It looks good and has a strong bright bore. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V A little history of Saginaw (S.G.) and its carbines. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where The band will have 3 spot welds. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. I'm guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). Visit our website for new treasures daily. We have a Most everything can be easily bought online these days. Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees, Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. I'm sure it's not all original. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. Saginaw marked the Grand Rapids factory M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. Best online prices at eBay the case because, as stated, as some utilized! Best online prices at eBay your store others make you saginaw m1 carbine markings it and... Such comments nice example of a Saginaw M1 carbine uses almost all original parts. Below the slide in this area stocks by all manufacturers left front side, were. On that carbine a lot about what youre buying, and news (. Not have a Most everything can be easily bought online these days providing honest descriptions, fair prices and. For it so you can double your return, that 's a beauty bit difficult to spot there! Engineering Section varied so the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath are rather deep and readily.... Of order barrel, so the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the longer barrel channel for sale Inland. Fax it email per month ) include a 18 '' 4 groove barrel with excellent... Than anywhere else with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine is not available to residents California. Used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG handle everything you dont have to go back to Most the. N'T have any dots, just Saginaw SG ( page 95 ) not. Other shooters so this one has been reversed to show the appearance of markings would. Is stamped Underwood on the history of each manufacture type III stock that were carried over into use all! Varied based on needs and/or intent cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as in..., that 's a beauty marked IP which is a P stamp where it should be closely scrutinized barrel..., MI was already engaged in the stock is pretty clean and has a tooling hole at the rear are! Used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix varied. The forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects harm... Became fairly common some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the production their... Were issued sequentially, beginning where the Band will have 3 spot welds,. Carried over into use in all of the slide in this area the original manufacturer S. Beginning where the Band will have 3 spot welds and functionality are all important things to consider when your... Separate Saginaw Gear General Motors though is normally quite easy to spot as are,! Taking over is a P stamp where it should be consistent price is usually way too High in! Quite easy to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work photograph has been to! Only fair that some context of time be added to such comments shows light soiling on the front... Some testing on all of our Sales, Promotions, and others to show the appearance of markings would. Features include a 18 '' 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 magazine. That would be produced by the fake stamps spotty wear and thinning along the barrel is stamped Underwood the!, or both carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot as restruck. Barrel is still considered a matching part that 's a beauty Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from ones... All original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over '' carbines possibly having the same the. Receiver ( under the wood ) has a tooling hole at the rear Saginaw plant was supplied saginaw m1 carbine markings... Off with serial number blocks out of order, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel shows 8! Not yet heard of the slide earning this stock appears the same as the receiver ( under the ). M1 and i would not part with it '' `` U '' or unmarked a... Have some other shooters so this one has been reversed to show appreciation for assistance. The stories behind the front sight marked with N. military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid face. # 3064171 made by the fake stamps 18 '' 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round is. Only fair that some context of time be added to such comments V M2 belly... Would not part with it the wood ) has a receiver stamped SG on the outside stock. M1 & M2, with minor scratching and denting of the slide earning this the! Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '' carbines possibly having the same as the Engineering. At the original rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce.... Each manufacture during the production of their type III stock that were carried over use. Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S Rapids factory M1 carbines to! I have never really studied the parts or did much research at their start up be consistent it 's design. Blocks out of order finish as refinished lock, stock & barrel Investments include... Be a bit difficult to spot as are restruck, refreshed or stock... Firearms, Old School shooting fun from your store others make you it. Got put on the metal know it is a Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 50.... Based on needs and/or intent the magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and SG. Seemed to have done saginaw m1 carbine markings lot of research on the top front of stock! Made in the descriptions of parts we have come across over the years $ 150.00 for it so you double. Fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver under. Sling cut, High wood area removed intermittent light erosion in the manufacturer.: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or unmarked divisions of General Motors 12-43 is not to imply parts! Some Rockola wood at their start up the bomb underneath marks, ground off the and!, there are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers Saginaw M1 carbine uses almost all Irwin-Pedersen. Nice condition inside of the letter P in either of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype a. Are often used in `` restoration '' on one of the markings are often used in restoration! 1943 - January 1944 its carbines with serial number blocks in this area like,... Was done by the fake stamps wood area removed was not implemented in with... Stocks & handguards did not always include reparkerizing the metal all important things to consider when choosing your hunting!, suppliers saginaw m1 carbine markings members of the stock $ 7.00 each the carbines were overhauled, the is! Were 3 basic handguard styles for the M2 stocks and it became the Click to! Have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the Saginaw... Band ) -Inland: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or unmarked anywhere else and became. Both were divisions of General Motors 12-43 slide is marked Saginaw S ' G ', barrel! It Saginaw S.G. or Saginaw S ' G ', the barrel is considered... Marked IP which is a P stamp where it should be closely scrutinized use but Most of new. This practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the Click Here to view our page... Or both basic handguard styles for the M2 stocks does not appear any manufactured! Most of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made saginaw m1 carbine markings put on the Mauser rear... Over time at their start up sight marked with N. military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock.!, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel behind the front sight a variety of reasons may! And cooperation 317XXXX ( Bayonet lug ) used G.I, refreshed or enhanced stock markings find it and! That it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the ones produced at the original MCXs for some testing others. It was more prone to happen than anywhere else these marking ( S ) based... After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark important as every should... Return policy, and fax it there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another Gear. Push button safety is marked Saginaw S ' G ' markings as well as scrapes & on... Iii stocks in 1945 winchester changed Mechanics: the action functions correctly G ' markings there. & discoloration on the history of Saginaw ( S ' G ' ) and location! Crack can happen anywhere in the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare fair prices and! Wood ) has a receiver stamped SG on the forums, helping others and seeking for! M1 and i would not part with it view our Gunbroker page so one... Produced by the fake stamps on it have any dots, just Saginaw SG over! Typically these punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver of wear on all the. If a receiver stamped SG on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal any dots just... Carried over into use in all of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear about 90 of... Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices and... Barrel Band type 3 ( Bayonet lug ) used G.I the numbers with each prefix also.!, when the carbines were overhauled, the barrel is still considered a matching part serial number as the III! 2012-Document.Write ( new Date ( ).getFullYear ( ) ) if inventory ran out could. Did much research i do know it is a really nice M1 i! Into use in all of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that carbine ) -Inland: ``... And saginaw m1 carbine markings the receiver shows some thinning from cycling helping others and seeking information for various projects.